Re: Honda Marine - Honwave Air Floor Range- (Quality Control Issues)

[sonny1]

its getting very choppy out there!!!!!!

[ChrisParish]

Your likening of the Volaire construction to an air bed is about as valid and informed as describing the T38 hull as two paddle boards glued together.

That’s pretty much exactly what the hull of the T38 is!

The deck of the Volaire does look like an air bed from the top, but that is quite clearly where the similarities end!

I am sorry that Friday 21st didn’t pan out as you had hoped. For the record, we didn’t decide to do something else instead of the test, we did something else because the test had been cancelled. The whole issue with swapping engines isn’t entirely black and white - people were loath to place their engine on a different and, critically, uninsured boat for it to be put through its paces if they weren’t going to be the one doing it and I think that is understandable when the engines cost between two and three times the cost of the boat.

The more I look at the Volaire the more I like it. I have been doing some research and West Marine in the US used to sell a 420 high pressure V floor and have replaced it with what is essentially the Volaire in grey.

This got me to thinking about physics and structural engineering:
As a high pressure air floor gets larger the pressure required to keep it stiff increases and I suspect the relationship is not linear. To counter this you make the floor thicker. As you increase th thickness you reach a point where you can start reducing the pressure again whilst maintaining the strength - look how strong the main tubes are and they only run at .25 bar.
Given that the high pressure floors require more complex manufacturing techniques the logical conclusion of this though experiment is to increase the thickness of the floor until you reach the point where it can be assembled using more regular techniques but is still as stiff or stiffer than a high pressure floor of the same size. This technique gets more advantageous the larger the boat gets (within reason). The only disadvantage of this is that you lose some depth in the boat as the floor is slightly higher than the bottom of the tubes whereas with a high pressure V the floor is below the bottom of the tubes. It ain’t flat tho -so swings and roundabouts.

I really really want a go in your boat now, @Brerabit. If I like it then I might treat myself to a Volaire 430 for next season.

[Brerabit]

Don’t worry about Friday @ChrisParish , I’m long enough in the tooth to have learned to roll with stuff which is outside my control. It was the suggestion I hadn’t bothered to turn up which wrankled.
Me, my boat and engine were down there and good to go as promised.

I think you’re bob-on with the comparison of the methods in that they both consist of inflated outer skins, whose expansion and ultimate shape is constrained by internal ties in one form or another but the deployment of that basic principle is very different between the boats. In the Honwave application, they’ve chosen to use the technology to make two boards which when fabricated into the boat, work well to create a semi-rigid and lightweight V hull. However, because the boards are only about two inches thick, a lot of air pressure is needed to make the material rigid but it’s still very clever stuff.

The Volaire approach uses the same basic idea but pressurises a much bigger structure which is internally tensioned with large fabric webs i.e. a deep V hull which is then topped off flat to create the floor. Because it’s both a large volume and internally tensioned, It doesn’t take a lot of pressure to make the overall structure very rigid with about the same resistance to finger pressure as you’d feel with very over inflated side tubes.

I’m guessing the Honwave board material is machine made, albeit by a very clever machine but that would help to keep the cost down. Whereas, the Volaire construction method requires every internal web has to be placed by hand which is quite labour intensive and two hundred quid or so more expensive.

Your mention of the Volaire 430 raises another point in that almost all manufacturers using the
board method stop at sub four metres which I'm guessing is perceived as the limit. The Volaire 390 is the smallest in a range which goes up to 530 and all are as stiff as a board - or stiffer.

As I said before you're extremely welcome to give it a go when we can set a date which hopefully isn’t too far off.

[harrison]

@Brerabit
Having fired a few broad shots across each other’s beam recently perhaps now a good time to invoke the code of ‘parley’.

Despite the recent banter, I am genuinely interested and keeping an open mind about the merits of our ‘two glued paddle boards’ floor versus your ‘air bed’ floor boats.

Having only seen a Volaire on the Excel website and not in the flesh am struggling to understand where the stiffness comes from. Excel state the hull/deck are integral but I seem to recall in a previous thread you described the deck removable with transverse rib beam stiffeners under. Sounds that might help. It would be great if you had any photos of how it all fits together.

It’s easy to see where the stiffness comes from in the air floor Honwaves/Aerotecs etc....introduce a longitudinal fold to form a V and a floppy floor instantly becomes stiff. The same drop stitch high pressure flat air floors in boats with sausage keels are about as stiff as a wet sponge by comparison. In fact the Honwaves could probably perform even better if they carried a bit more V, even an inch or so, right back to the transom.

In my experience the stiffest sibs by far are the aluminium floor, stringered, sausage keel models. Fast and efficient but give a bone jarring ride when pushing on in chop. This for me, is where the V air floors come into there own...still fairly stiff and offering good performance yet providing a surprising amount of comfort in the chop at planing speeds. Do you think the Volaire provides these benefits?

Excel are only about an hour down the road from us so think I may pay them a visit some time soon. In the meantime any pics you may have would be of great interest as a serious alternative to the dreaded T38 would be a blessing.

[harrison]

Holy crap @Mitch !!

What ya bin doin wiv dat T38....using it as a trampoline?

Bet it rode worse than a wobble board.

More hook than this geezer!

[Mitch]

It didn’t like me Harrison it kept trying to throw me out.

[Brerabit]

Once again @harrison I find myself in violent agreement with most of your post and agree we don’t need to waste energy fencing.

I also have an apology to make regarding the earlier post you referred to because I got the Volaire construction very confused with the Volante and wound up describing a non-existent bastardisation of the two methods. So, in the interest of clarity and with a smidgin of contrition - there are no supplemental stiffening components whatsoever.

The hull/flloor is constructed entirely from fabric and derives its stiffness and rigidity from the tension created by constraining the upper (floor) to the lower (hull) skins by what I can only describe as ten vertical, fabric ‘I’ beams running front to back. Why it’s quite as stiff as it is, surprises me as well. I haven’t yet tried as @Martin suggested, standing on the keel but I have tried walking around on the floor and any give is minimal and totally constrained to the point at which it’s applied. The only explanation I can suggest is that if you were to view a cross section of the boat, ignoring the tubes, you would be looking at a an inverted isosceles triangle with the floor as the top side. It’s a lot of air which is very constrained in where it can go and it’s holding all that fabric in tension. In other words any force which attempts to distort it is opposed by an almost Newtonian response from the rest of the structure.

It’s a different approach to the T38 and rather than a flat sided ‘V’ it’s a little more like the gull-wing outline of a RIB but both seem to give the combination of a well defined hull but with enough give to to take the smack out of landing. With the T38, it’s the drop-stich boards which flex slightly within their length to create a more forgiving ride. On the Volaire, I would think it would be nigh on impossible to induce any significant distortion in the overall shape, it really is that rigid but there is a little give locally where for instance it would come into contact with a wave. An entirely different approach to the Honwave but striving to achieve the same result - and which in my untrained hands performs very well. All I can say is that so far only one experienced T38er has tried it and was very impressed to the point of saying he wanted one.

I’ve got one or two little mods to do on it over the next week or two and I’ll be setting it up in the garden. When I do, I’ll take some images which will hopefully be more informative than the word pictures I’m failing to paint.

[harrison]

As a fairly recent owner of a new T38 with the fashionable slightly asymmetric hull and sometimes unexplained random ventilation issues I have noticed, both early on and over the subsequent months, a further minor issue.

Have any of you guys that keep your T38’s permanently inflated on a trailer noticed any small water leakage through the hull.

Rather bizarre but after a day or so after use, washed and fully dried, then a few droplets of salty water seep out of the internal keel glued joint tape. Only perhaps a thimble full, but definitely migrating out of joint between floor halves. Presumably this means water is entering the small air space between floor halves along the keel line from the outer joint. There are no air leaks in floor panels or tubes.

Recently done a couple of river runs at trolling speeds where absolutely no water splashed into boat (also boarded totally dry from a pontoon) and after an hour or so noticed a few drops of water collecting along keel line.

Intrigued by this, so today filled boat with a couple inches of water, left a couple of hours, and low and behold a few drips from u/s keel strip evident.

Water migrating out from u/s keel strip

A further few hours after draining and fully drying off then also noticed leaching water internally out of upper keel strip.

Water seeping internally from keel joint strip

Whilst the very negligible amount of water seeping into the boat over a few hours is probably totally irrelevant as a safety issue, it is still in my book a leak in the hull.

Anybody else noticed this.

Loving the T38 experience. Slightly asymmetric hull, gurgling noises whilst on the plane, random severe ventilation issues only rectified by excessive trim in, and now to cap it all a leaking hull....agreed only minor and not perhaps a safety issue, but a leak is a leak. What will be next.

Trying my utmost to like this boat as when on song it performs well, and can’t think of any real alternatives. Whilst the Volaire is tempting and like the floor concept, I’m just not keen on the looks and gut feel tells me it will not provide such a sporty ride as the T38.


@Martin would this issue be suitable to add to the official Honwave Air Floor thread.

[Mitch]

Sorry to hear this @harrison,
I can’t say I’ve noticed this but then I haven’t been specifically looking for it.
I usually do have a bit of water in the boat when finished but not taken any notice, when we went out the other week we hit a few waves & water came up over the tubes but I found having COLIN up front he seems to soak it up, by the time we get to our fishing mark he’s soaking wet but the boat is relatively dry.

[harrison]

I have found that water comes out from under the keel strip when I’m rolling the boat up. I can’t say as I have noticed if any gets into the boat, but I am eager to find out.