I’m getting a little concerned…

[Brerabit]

I’m now getting very close to placing an order for a Honwave T38 but am becoming increasingly worried about what appear to be quality control issues. I’ve been hearing about boats delivered which are less than perfect. The main issue I’ve read about concerns asymmetry of the “V-hull”, I have also heard of concerns about the quality or integrity of seams and now @Harrison may have a “hooked hull”. (it took me a while to find out what it is - apparently not a good thing)

Am I being unreasonably concerned or is this a significant issue? I’m sure that if there was an obvious defect a company as reputable as Honda would replace faulty goods - but how do you know what is unacceptable and what is ‘within limits or tolerance’. I have a pretty good eye and can usually spot when something is not straight or misaligned but I don’t know how to assess what is 'acceptably out of true'. To make matters worse when people like @Harrison, who are far more experienced than me, don’t find out they have a problem till they’re on the water, what chance do I stand of getting it right? I really don’t want to be lashing out over a grand and then spending the next few weeks either not being sure whether I’ve got a good’n or knee deep in wrangling with a dealer.

I’ve looked for alternatives but haven’t come up with anything that is comparable in terms of weight and packed size and that when it’s right, ticks all the boxes.
Am I worrying unnecessarily or should I be looking for an alternative?

[PeterM]

Nothing wrong with a bit of worry - however all in the right place and amount

My advice - take someone with you who is more 'in the know' - maybe even ask if a member here can meet you ?

Go and pick up the boat - get it unboxed and blown up ( to full pressure) and look all over it ( ideally with someone else there as above)

Talk to the seller about ' if i have a problem' and judge thier response - if it doesnt give you warm fuzzy feeling dont pay - walk away ....

We ALL have been down this path and come out the other side and love being on the water ....

[Brerabit]

There is a risk that the floor won’t be perfect, but there is nothing else that compares for the money.

I have one with a slightly asymmetrical floor. I think that provided that the keel is straight you should be fine.

Don’t overthink it, that’s my advice.

[harrison]

Hi Brerabit,

I can certainly understand your concerns.

I too was concerned at ordering a T38 with all the reports of hull quality issues, but thought what the hell, I’ll risk it. In the market for a lightweight V air floor sports boat around 3.8m, capable of taking a 20hp motor, quick assembly and in car transportable. Not our main boat, just something to throw in the car for a day out, and not much else out there with the demise of the legendary Aerotec, although nearly three times the price.

Whilst aware of the risks l did not inspect and inflate at the dealers. It’s not like the dealer had half a dozen in stock to inspect anyway, as the boat was ordered in. I also feel this should not really be necessary with a premium brand and perhaps unrealistic to leave dealers with half a dozen opened boxes/inflated boats to eventually sell as new. I took the risk, and associated hassle, as confidant Honda would ultimately exchange/refund if it all went wrong.

If I’d looked at boat inflated, would I have rejected it? Yes probably, on aesthetics but not thinking it would affect hull performance.

I’m not actually 100% sure the hull is defective on mine yet. Yes, it is slightly asymmetrical near the bow for a short length but looks true on the more important planing area. Thought best to try on the water first before dismissing out of hand, plus we need further on water testing to ascertain if problem was unique to the water conditions on the day only. If the damned water up here would settle down we could get out and sort all this out for good.

I think anybody considering a T38, myself included, should accept that any 3.8m sib is right on the max length for a shallow V air floor. Power these boats up near to the max is, under certain conditions, going to expose any deficiencies in hull design.

The loss of power and gurgling noise we experienced is almost certainly due to entrapped air travelling under hull, exiting under transom and causing prop to temporarily ventilate. Very typical symptoms of a hooked hull on a hard boat. On smooth water this cycle would continue, the bow would probably porpoise slightly and you could more than likely feel the air bubble travel rearwards under the air floor....like a wave. If anybody reported this in a T38 I would straight away advise the floor is not inflated to the correct pressure. Unfortunately ours was definitely running at correct pressure as we checked this immediately after experiencing fault.

At the end of the day, the water was extremely choppy, we are still running in our motor, so unable to find out if we could power through this phenomenon. Sitting on the floor significantly reduced the symptoms which reinforces the theory it’s the floor flexing. One other theory we have is the extended trim tabs might be momentarily elevating the transom in choppy conditions as the wavelet passes past the prop. In some conditions this could allow air pockets to exit under transom causing prop ventilation.

It is disappointing that there appears to be so many Friday afternoon/defective hulls out there. If they are the cause of unusual handling traits then it shows the hull is so close to design fault that any small variation from ‘perfect’ results in unacceptable handling traits.

Having said all this, there are many, many satisfied owners of T38’s out there who swear by them.

[Froglet]

My own experiences with the T38, combined with reports from others, make me wonder if it's a little bit of a case of "they all do that, sir...."

On the flat, calm river my T38 will hop up onto the plane and zip along on part throttle all nice and calm, but as I start to increase the speed the bow seems to dig in a little, closely followed by gurgling and the bulge forming and travelling back along the floor. This is all with floor checked and running full pressure. I tried moving the manual trim of the outboard out to see if that would lift the bow and help, but all it did was cause ventilation at surprisingly low speed.

On the lovely calm (5mph speed limit) river I was unable (not willing) to check if the phenomenon would pass as the speed increased so had to wait for the trip to Isle of Wight in March.

Out on the slightly bumpy sea I did still experience the bulging of the floor and I had some ventilation in tighter turns, but overall the performance was quite satisfactory, if somewhat terrifying for someone used to the pace of boating on the upper Thames. I also chose to sit on the floor, but that was because it felt far more secure and safe when pushing up to top speed. If sitting on the floor helped with the bulging that's great, but I did it to avoid flinging myself out of the boat.

I did mean to take note of engine revs and be far more analytical about the floor bulging at various speeds, but to be honest I was just hanging on for dear life and having too much fun to care. Maybe next time

@harrison I did intend to post a picture of the bow of my v1 T38 for comparison with yours, but time got away from me. I'll take a similar angle shot in the daylight and pop it up in your thread. As far as I can tell the hull and rubbing strip on my old boat is all symmetrical, but I think my Frankenstein's monster of a trailer introduces a slight twist to the hull that I've never noticed when the boat is off the trailer.

So my limited experience suggests that my T38 has no problem at displacement or lower planing speed, but as it gets above about 15kts I begin to get noise from the front and the bulging starts. That happens a little earlier with more people on board. However as speeds get above 20kts the bulging disappears (or maybe on the Solent it became irrelevant due to the amount of time the boat was airborne) and I was able to hold the engine on wide open throttle without seeming to lose grip. So maybe powering through the effect is a thing. I look forward to trying again next time I'm away from speed limits.

[harrison]

Here are some pics of the bottom of mine.
You can see that the floor is a bit asymmetrical but the keel is dead straight and that is important.

Mine gets quite a bulge in the floor towards the transom, but as @harrison has pointed out 3.8m really is the limit of what’s possible for an airfloor.

[Brerabit]

As I suggested, I’m struggling to find an alternative to the T38 that ticks all the boxes and so I haven’t given up on it - but neither do I want to be part of their quality control process.

What I find disappointing is that a lot of Honwaves are purchased, partly because of the comfort factor associated with the Honda name, which in most other spheres is a synonym for quality and reliability. That doesn’t appear to be the case here. I know they are manufactured by others (Sun, I think) but if they are carrying the name then surely there is an obligation to live up to it.

I’ve spoken to a couple of dealers who both tended to play down the QC problem as historical but seemed a little reluctant to take it out of the box and check it before shipping. Apparently the motor will get a PDI but not the boat - that’s down to the customer to assess whether it’s fit for purpose.

I find it odd that not only is the manufacturer shipping questionable product but the dealers are complicit in delivering a boat and then leaving the customer to determine whether it’s up to spec - or not, before going through the aggravation of shipping it back for a replacement.

I’m ok with accepting design limitations and can buy into the T38 being at the limit for an Air hull. From what I’ve gleaned from you guys it would seem that any shortcomings can be lived with or worked around.

What I’m less inclined to accept is defective manufacture that should have been eliminated thousands of miles away but failing that, no further than the dealer.

So, I still want to get a T38 but I only want to do it once - and I want a straight one…

…and while I’m on a roll, you’ve got to hear this one.
While I was ringing round dealers, I was also enquiring about motors, specifically the Suzuki 20hp.
One salesman tried to persuade me that a Honda 20hp would be much better (in spite of the weight, price, etc. etc.) and finished off by saying that ‘they were a much more desirable motor - it’s always the Hondas that get stolen”

Well that’ll be the clincher then…

[chris moody]

The Honwave T38’s superb handling on the water and ease of setting up / packing away certainly makes it one of the best choices for those into what I call “proper sibbing” or “extreme sibbing” (by that I mean using a sib for full days out exploring and longer distances at planing speeds, not just as a tender to get between the shore and a bigger boat). If you can be bothered to keep checking and rejecting Honwaves until you receive a decently built one I do believe it’s probably still one of the best sibs out there.

The increasing number of poorly assembled Honwaves is however becoming more and more worrying. I thought I was unlucky having to rejects two separate Honwave T32’s and finally buying a different brand of boat. But it seems others are receiving sub standard boats from new, with increasing regularity.

I guess the shape of the hull, or the robustness of the transom wheels, does not matter if you are using it just as a tender, and I suspect the problem is that the majority of sib manufacturers believe that is all these boats are used for. I think as a group we tend to use sibs in a more extreme and demanding way than the majority of sib owners.

Which got me thinking are there any real serious competitors to the Honwave T38ie for us more extreme sibbers? Has anyone found anything else that can match the T38 for its ability in waves / chop and ease of setup / pack down ?

Any ideas?

[harrison]

Which got me thinking are there any real serious competitors to the Honwave T38ie for us more extreme sibbers? Has anyone found anything else that can match the T38 for its ability in waves / chop and ease of setup / pack down ?

Any ideas?

Good question, and with the demise of the legendary Bombard Aerotec 380, I think perhaps not.

A few manufacturers like Europa, Sunsport and a few others make V air floor models but all seem to stop at around 3.2m as far as I know. There is a new kid on the block though...Boatworld have introduced a V air floor range that goes up to 3.6m;

https://boatworld.co.uk/boatworld-infla ... r-deck-360



Considered and seen one in the flesh, and for the price look ok. Coloured and styled as a bit of a Honwave clone but the quality of fittings, transom construction etc all felt a bit lightweight and not as robust compared to the Honwaves. Not quite as long, slightly narrower, and with smaller diameter tubes it weighs only 41kg with floor profile similar to the Honwaves. As it had a no deeper V and slightly shorter hull, then couldn’t see any performance advantage over the T38.

Would be interested to hear if anyone has found anything else out there, but fear we are stuck with the T38’s gremlins for now. The slightly annoying thing, if Honwave carried just a little more V back to the transom then pretty sure the floor flexing/ventilating would be resolved.

[Froglet]

I would be very surprised if there wasn't some sort of very worthy challenger to the T38 hidden away in the Russian domestic market. They seem to have a large and very active sibbing community. Just witness the amount of accessories for inflatables of Russian origin that pop up on Ebay.